The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

talk about news, give advice, ask questions

Moderator: RunniNirvana

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby corn diesel » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:40 pm

Mostly affluent white kids who not only compete together but eat together and make sure to live in blocks of rooms together in the dorms. Weird. Where have I seen anything like that elsewhere in the world?

You guys are right. There are so many many differences between the Amherst team and our own.
User avatar
corn diesel
 
Posts: 5105
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:51 pm

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby Narddog » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:38 am

User avatar
Narddog
Marathon Mastermind
 
Posts: 9119
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:38 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby will91 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:53 pm

Since this thread began with an article by William Deresiewicz, I thought folks here would be interested in his latest. https://theamericanscholar.org/on-political-correctness/#

I find his analogy between elite college PC culture and religion to be mostly persuasive. I find it interesting, too, that a similar comparison is simultaneously being made by Andrew Sullivan. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/03/is-intersectionality-a-religion.html
will91
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 7:44 pm
Location: New York

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby Narddog » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:54 pm

PA schools with graduates most in debt: http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/12/pe ... ne_in.html

Go to the bottom:

Schools with lowest student debt
Which schools in Pennsylvania have the lowest average student debt per borrower? They are:
Dickinson College, where the average student debt per borrower is $26,908 and 54 percent of graduates have student debt.
California University of Pennsylvania, where the average student debt per borrower is $25,683, and 88 percent of graduates have student debt.
Point Park University, where the average student debt per borrower is $26,729 and 80 percent of graduates have student debt.
University of Pennsylvania, where the average student debt per borrower is $24,536 and 31 percent of graduates have student debt.
University of the Sciences, where the average debt per borrower is $24,191 and 69 percent of graduates have student debt.
Bryn Mawr, where the average student debt is $23,081 and 53 percent of graduates have student debt.
Swarthmore College, where the average debt per borrower is $22,957 and just 31 percent of graduates have student debt.
Bucknell University, with an average debt of $22,600. Fifty-three percent of graduates have student debt.
Haverford College, where the average debt per borrower is just $13,000, and only 29 percent of graduates have debt.
Geneva College, where the average debt is $10,549. Ninety percent of its graduates have student debt.


The financial aid policy may be imperfect and it recruits fewer socioeconomically diverse students than it should, but this is a pretty strong case for the affordability of the college.
User avatar
Narddog
Marathon Mastermind
 
Posts: 9119
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:38 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby Koseph Jarpenter » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:39 pm

At first I was gonna say that seems pretty phenomenal, but I guess it's hard to pick apart how much that reflects the quality of financial aid vs the wealth of students and the extent to which student in-need don't apply or aren't accepted
User avatar
Koseph Jarpenter
merv Logjammin'
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:39 pm

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby jiggy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:48 pm

Koseph Jarpenter wrote:At first I was gonna say that seems pretty phenomenal, but I guess it's hard to pick apart how much that reflects the quality of financial aid vs the wealth of students and the extent to which student in-need don't apply or aren't accepted


I was thinking the same thing, but on second look that stat is average debt per borrower. So it's only counting students who do borrow to some extent, right? Making it much more impressive.
User avatar
jiggy
Old-timer
 
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:53 am

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby Narddog » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:04 pm

jiggy wrote:
Koseph Jarpenter wrote:At first I was gonna say that seems pretty phenomenal, but I guess it's hard to pick apart how much that reflects the quality of financial aid vs the wealth of students and the extent to which student in-need don't apply or aren't accepted


I was thinking the same thing, but on second look that stat is average debt per borrower. So it's only counting students who do borrow to some extent, right? Making it much more impressive.


Yes, although there might be some trailing data from when we we had a no debt policy in addition to full need/need blind.
User avatar
Narddog
Marathon Mastermind
 
Posts: 9119
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:38 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby The Burmeister » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:27 pm

Does "29 percent of graduates have debt" mean there are borrowers with $0 of debt, or does this imply that only 29 percent of graduates are borrowers to begin with? The average debt is a little less impressive if 71% of students are paying full tuition.
User avatar
The Burmeister
 
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:08 am

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby Juan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:45 pm

I know we're not full need, but is Haverford still at least need blind? Or did they drop that as well? I remember being outraged at some point about abandoning need blind admissions, but I can't remember if that was about Haverford or somewhere else where I choose to indulge in moral outrage.
User avatar
Juan
 
Posts: 3070
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:18 pm

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby Trogginated » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:14 pm

Haverford dropped the need-blind thing for this year's freshman class, to the general outrage of the student body, especially those that don't understand how minor the policy change was. I don't mean to sound like a total shill here, but Haverford is still effectively need-blind, they just can't say that they're completely need-blind anymore. They say that it currently affects the last ~10 students to be accepted out of the incoming class, which is still decent in my opinion. Perhaps I'm biased, because my class was the very last to have been promised debt-free graduation.

Burmeister, I think the usual stat is that ~50% of the student body is paying full freight. Which is still amazingly high given that it's almost $280k over 4 years (slightly less if you're off the full meal plan).
Trogginated
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:50 pm

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby stormin mormon » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:32 pm

I was struck by your comment Bernie about the "affordability of the college."

Am I totally wrong in thinking that it is absolutely unaffordable for someone like me with four kids and a salary that (unless I change jobs) will never reach the levels I would need to be able to actually pay for Haverford (even if I could get a deal like 50% off the sticker price)?

Am I just misunderstanding financial aid packages in general? I was basically just accepting the idea that my kids couldn't go to a school like Haverford and hoping that somehow this bubble burst in the next ten years but even if costs didn't change at all, it still seems completely out of reach for us. And I don't think we are doing badly.

So I guess my question is, who is Haverford affordable for? Can a family with a household income of $120K actually afford to send kids there?
"The old lion is not dead yet."
User avatar
stormin mormon
 
Posts: 2802
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:57 pm
Location: mean streets of hardmore

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby Narddog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:46 pm

I can't say for sure, JB, but this might help you figure it out: https://www.haverford.edu/financial-aid ... calculator also check this out: https://www.aidcalc.com/calculators/efc ... window_top

You've got to remember there are many components to aid:

1) Parental contribution - your main concern and determined via FAFSA/HC
2) Student contribution - summer wages and work study. Probably $4-6k all in.
3) HC required loans - current policy for your income bracket is $2,500 a year
4) Haverford grants - everything after parental contribution, student contribution, and loans

Not included there but nonetheless viable are private loans to be used to compensate for the parental contribution. Part of the question is how much in loans are you willing for your kids to take on to go to a place like Haverford? Because my guess is that your parental contribution, especially with multiple kids in or about to go to college at that time, will be modest relative to the sticker price of the education. Does that mean it will be easy? Absolutely not, but back of the envelope math suggests it is possible.

My best, modestly informed guess is that under current Haverford policy, you would be on the hook for ~$12-20k for your first child, and assuming each of them goes to Haverford and there is some overlap, you are then looking at $6-10k after that, maybe even less. Is that cheap? Certainly not, but it does compare favorably or better than most in-state tuitions of R1 universities (although your children are less likely to accumulate debt in the same way in that environment).

Any other recent goats or parents of goats want to gut check me on this?
User avatar
Narddog
Marathon Mastermind
 
Posts: 9119
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:38 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby stormin mormon » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:07 pm

Thanks Bernie, that really helps. I was way off in terms of my expectations. I figured I would be expected to take on so much debt that it would be something that I just wouldn't be willing to do. But, at least if the calculator is even relatively accurate, it seems like it might be possible.

So thanks for clearing up my ignorance and making it seem possible that my kids could go to someplace like Haverford. I am very impressed that they have managed to keep it relatively affordable!
"The old lion is not dead yet."
User avatar
stormin mormon
 
Posts: 2802
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:57 pm
Location: mean streets of hardmore

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby mwalsh88 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:43 pm

mwalsh88 wrote:
The Burmeister wrote:
dano wrote:a script that parses the words of all of walsh's posts and turns them into trading decisions


#!/usr/bin/python

while true:
buy_litecoin()

while $litecoin < $bitcoin
echo "F@#K yeah!"

April 2014, LTC was $12.07
Now it is $190
BTC has gone from $487 to $16k

Truly berserk.....
User avatar
mwalsh88
 
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:38 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, Canadia

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Postby Narddog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:49 pm

stormin mormon wrote:Thanks Bernie, that really helps. I was way off in terms of my expectations. I figured I would be expected to take on so much debt that it would be something that I just wouldn't be willing to do. But, at least if the calculator is even relatively accurate, it seems like it might be possible.

So thanks for clearing up my ignorance and making it seem possible that my kids could go to someplace like Haverford. I am very impressed that they have managed to keep it relatively affordable!


Haverford is very expensive, but not out of line with many of its peers. Similarly, it offers generous financial aid support, equal to or ahead of many of its peers. Full need, even if need-aware for a small segment of its population, ensures a healthy degree of accessibility, although you are right to flag that the middle class are often squeezed out of support for this kind of education.
User avatar
Narddog
Marathon Mastermind
 
Posts: 9119
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:38 am
Location: San Francisco

PreviousNext

Return to Running

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests